Phobophobia
Jul 20, 01:24 PM
More like $13,950
:rolleyes:
You're both wrong. The price is infinite because it doesn't exist, and yet there is demand. ;)
:rolleyes:
You're both wrong. The price is infinite because it doesn't exist, and yet there is demand. ;)
Cougarcat
Mar 25, 10:50 PM
So is there real resolution independence or just a x2 mode?
Neither, but there's the beginnings of support for "retina displays."
maybe they will release it in late july instead of late august like snow leopard. does anyone remember how much leopard cost. snow leopard wasnt really a new OS. just a speed bump from leopard so thats why it was $30. i just want to get an idea of what they price lion at because i heard $120 a while ago.
If they start pumping out release candidates now, I think late July is is too far away. WWDC early June is more likely.
Major OS releases have historically been $129. I don't think that'll happen this time--$99 or $79 makes more sense (Apple likes people to upgrade, and their software prices aren't as high as they used to be). But that's just me speculating.
i wonder if apple will release a version in the app store???
Almost definitely, that's how developers are getting it now.
Maybe not such a big update after all? Where are all the secrets? The UI could use more of an overhaul IMO.
It is a big update. Versions and Resume alone are huge, IMO. (Which you don't really appreciate until you start using them.)
The UI may not look radically different, but there's hardly a part of it that hasn't been retouched.
Neither, but there's the beginnings of support for "retina displays."
maybe they will release it in late july instead of late august like snow leopard. does anyone remember how much leopard cost. snow leopard wasnt really a new OS. just a speed bump from leopard so thats why it was $30. i just want to get an idea of what they price lion at because i heard $120 a while ago.
If they start pumping out release candidates now, I think late July is is too far away. WWDC early June is more likely.
Major OS releases have historically been $129. I don't think that'll happen this time--$99 or $79 makes more sense (Apple likes people to upgrade, and their software prices aren't as high as they used to be). But that's just me speculating.
i wonder if apple will release a version in the app store???
Almost definitely, that's how developers are getting it now.
Maybe not such a big update after all? Where are all the secrets? The UI could use more of an overhaul IMO.
It is a big update. Versions and Resume alone are huge, IMO. (Which you don't really appreciate until you start using them.)
The UI may not look radically different, but there's hardly a part of it that hasn't been retouched.
DPazdanISU
Sep 19, 06:53 AM
Sorry but I've heard this so many times it gets pretty annoying. Dont assume to know what ppl want to use their Macbooks for. I want to use it for music production which can be very intensive on the processor, other people for graphics etc where a few seconds shaved off processing times when added up many times can make quite a difference to productivity.
Also, when the new chips come out it will instantly knock a chunk off the resell value - yes this is always the way with technology but buying when an update is coming soon seems silly.
i agree, I need a computer to encode video in iDVD because it takes forever on my PPC. That little difference in power is a big difference.
Also, when the new chips come out it will instantly knock a chunk off the resell value - yes this is always the way with technology but buying when an update is coming soon seems silly.
i agree, I need a computer to encode video in iDVD because it takes forever on my PPC. That little difference in power is a big difference.
wnurse
Nov 29, 12:41 AM
I can't wait until Steve laughs in their faces. Who the hell do these guys think they are?
Hmm, the people that can tell apple to go screw themselves and take their music of itunes, that's who. One studio threatening to ask for a piece of ipods is not as threatening if they all do... what you gonna do, not buy music at all?.. of course you will buy music. You'll curse the studios but you'll buy music (and if not you, mom and pop will still buy music even if not available on itunes).
Wil universal get what they want?.. Apple is not totally powerless in this potential negotiation but i doubt steve has the power to laugh in their faces. Apple does not make music, it sells it. A seller can hardly laugh in the face of the producer of goods (or the gatekeeper of those goods). Want proof?.. walmart vs apple. Apple makes ipods.. Walmart refused to deal with apple the way apple wanted.. guess who lost in that battle.. walmart of course.. they are merely a seller, apple is the gatekeeper of ipods. The same is with the music studios.. apple is a seller, music companies are the gatekeepers. They can dictate who can and can't sell their music and while every corporation is motivated by profits.. they can always take their music and go home. Sure they lose but so does apple or they can make their music exclusively available only on microsoft service. You might not buy the music but you aren't 300 miliion americans. I gurantee apple does not want to be sitting by idly watching microsoft steal a market they grew. Naw, steve is not laughing in anyone's face.
Hmm, the people that can tell apple to go screw themselves and take their music of itunes, that's who. One studio threatening to ask for a piece of ipods is not as threatening if they all do... what you gonna do, not buy music at all?.. of course you will buy music. You'll curse the studios but you'll buy music (and if not you, mom and pop will still buy music even if not available on itunes).
Wil universal get what they want?.. Apple is not totally powerless in this potential negotiation but i doubt steve has the power to laugh in their faces. Apple does not make music, it sells it. A seller can hardly laugh in the face of the producer of goods (or the gatekeeper of those goods). Want proof?.. walmart vs apple. Apple makes ipods.. Walmart refused to deal with apple the way apple wanted.. guess who lost in that battle.. walmart of course.. they are merely a seller, apple is the gatekeeper of ipods. The same is with the music studios.. apple is a seller, music companies are the gatekeepers. They can dictate who can and can't sell their music and while every corporation is motivated by profits.. they can always take their music and go home. Sure they lose but so does apple or they can make their music exclusively available only on microsoft service. You might not buy the music but you aren't 300 miliion americans. I gurantee apple does not want to be sitting by idly watching microsoft steal a market they grew. Naw, steve is not laughing in anyone's face.
Motley
Nov 28, 06:14 PM
Hadn't seen it posted yet:
Coming off of their deal with Zune, Universal is now considering getting money for each iPod sold.
Why Thank you Microsoft! (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-11-28T213349Z_01_N28267036_RTRUKOC_0_US-MEDIA-SUMMIT-UNIVERSALMUSIC-IPOD.xml):mad:
Coming off of their deal with Zune, Universal is now considering getting money for each iPod sold.
Why Thank you Microsoft! (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-11-28T213349Z_01_N28267036_RTRUKOC_0_US-MEDIA-SUMMIT-UNIVERSALMUSIC-IPOD.xml):mad:
AppleKrate
Sep 19, 10:49 AM
The MacBookPro is still too new a release to have the major type of changes you and others are hoping for. All you're going to get for the next year or two is speed bumps and maybe an upgrade in HD capacity, Graphics card, or Optical Drive (Blue-Ray or HD-DVD)
Basically I see two types of users in here pleading for the newer chips: the average users who just "like the idea of fast" when it really does them no good, and the professionals who are consistantly holding out for something better. The professionals are few and far between.
Please tell me what is majorly new about the current MacBook Pro besides an intel chip :confused: (and the name of course :rolleyes: )
PS how about an amateur professional? If not, maybe a professional amateur?
Basically I see two types of users in here pleading for the newer chips: the average users who just "like the idea of fast" when it really does them no good, and the professionals who are consistantly holding out for something better. The professionals are few and far between.
Please tell me what is majorly new about the current MacBook Pro besides an intel chip :confused: (and the name of course :rolleyes: )
PS how about an amateur professional? If not, maybe a professional amateur?
rezenclowd3
Aug 20, 01:16 PM
The Colin McRae series WAS great. With Dirt, its no longer a wold tour, more random than the last McRae game that was made.
I don't care for the hoppers because when I race, I don't want to sprint. I want 10+ laps. 20-30 is good. Also, when in the friggen hell will qualifying be added back into racing games???? That is half the racing experience. NOT fighting from dead last EVERY FING race! Luckily I get my fix there with the F1: Championship Edition for PS3, which really is a pretty damn good racing AND F1 game.
Oh and with Forza 3, oval is fun, which I refuse to watch in reality. BUT these guys running in the hoppers have MODIFIED their stock cars....ugh...
When I race my electric RC cars, our club has started to go to 7minute races. Still not cooking motors. Laps happens to be about 25 right now in stock timing class. I really think its the number of laps that one can do consistently makes racing more fun, not time overall IMO. Those 7minutes seem to last a VERY long time.
I don't care for the hoppers because when I race, I don't want to sprint. I want 10+ laps. 20-30 is good. Also, when in the friggen hell will qualifying be added back into racing games???? That is half the racing experience. NOT fighting from dead last EVERY FING race! Luckily I get my fix there with the F1: Championship Edition for PS3, which really is a pretty damn good racing AND F1 game.
Oh and with Forza 3, oval is fun, which I refuse to watch in reality. BUT these guys running in the hoppers have MODIFIED their stock cars....ugh...
When I race my electric RC cars, our club has started to go to 7minute races. Still not cooking motors. Laps happens to be about 25 right now in stock timing class. I really think its the number of laps that one can do consistently makes racing more fun, not time overall IMO. Those 7minutes seem to last a VERY long time.
radiohead14
Mar 22, 04:12 PM
Samsung can say all they want about their products. There are the following glaring issues:
1. Has anyone realize how much less Samsung's profit margins will be on the Galaxy Tab versus the iPad2? (ie. Apple retains a high profitability based on inhouse product development rather than contracting to third parties like other hardware developers)
2. Given what I perceive to be an extremely small profit margin, I find it difficult from an investor standpoint to endorse Samsung's business model.
3. It is next to impossible from a longterm business perspective that Samsung can price match Apple in this respect. It's an unsustainable business practice.
i believe samsung manufactures a lot of their own hardware.. from the display panels to the chips. don't they provide apple with parts for the ipad too? i think this is how samsung is able to price match apple here
1. Has anyone realize how much less Samsung's profit margins will be on the Galaxy Tab versus the iPad2? (ie. Apple retains a high profitability based on inhouse product development rather than contracting to third parties like other hardware developers)
2. Given what I perceive to be an extremely small profit margin, I find it difficult from an investor standpoint to endorse Samsung's business model.
3. It is next to impossible from a longterm business perspective that Samsung can price match Apple in this respect. It's an unsustainable business practice.
i believe samsung manufactures a lot of their own hardware.. from the display panels to the chips. don't they provide apple with parts for the ipad too? i think this is how samsung is able to price match apple here
DocNo
Apr 11, 10:09 AM
This is a little more out there but my friend has a theory that Apple has let Kevin Smith use the new Final Cut to cut and make his new film that is coming it. The importance of this is that he feels movie making is going the way of music making these days. He believes anything under 20 million is going to be funded independently, not released via movie studios and will sell the movies directly to the theaters.
He feels only the big blockbuster movies like Transformers and stuff will be left the studios, much like many musicians are skipping the record companies and making and releasing music themselves.
And as with the iPhone and iPad, if you are hopelessly behind in a traditional market (i.e. Mac OSX vs. Windows) go create a new one (i.e. iOS)! I have no doubt this is where Apple is going...
He feels only the big blockbuster movies like Transformers and stuff will be left the studios, much like many musicians are skipping the record companies and making and releasing music themselves.
And as with the iPhone and iPad, if you are hopelessly behind in a traditional market (i.e. Mac OSX vs. Windows) go create a new one (i.e. iOS)! I have no doubt this is where Apple is going...
X2468
Mar 31, 11:03 PM
Probably what bothers me the most about the discourse that Android is open is that underlying that logic is an implicit (or perhaps really explicit, depending on who is touting that discourse) assumption that it is democratic, liberal, progressive, and for "the people" and thus prevents a "draconian future" from happening because instead of letting corporations dictate our digital worlds, the people will a) have a say in it and b) have a choice.
Baloney!
This discourse makes a false link between software being open source and political ideology. The two are not necessarily corresponding. And furthermore, that Android is actually open source is highly debatable but I won't go there.
Why do so many technophiles fall for the discourse that open means choice means freedom mean democracy discourse? It's all BALONEY! Google isn't really interested in protecting your freedom, democracy etc.. It's really interested in surviving and making money. Let's try not to fall AGAIN for that political cover.
In this case, I find Apple much more honest. They don't talk about political ideologies like freedom, democracy etc. All they say is they want to make devices that are friendly and easy to use. They don't couch their products in political ideological terms.
Your verbose attempt to cloud the truth is impressive, even if wildly false. It's readily apparent you've gone to great lengths to cover up your lack of technical erudition.
I do agree that Apples current advantages are:
1) Brand Name
2) Excellent Product Design
3) Huge Population Of Cult Like Followers
4) Steve Jobs, Worlds Best Sales Person
Yet change is brewing, nothing lasts forever.
Be prepared.
Baloney!
This discourse makes a false link between software being open source and political ideology. The two are not necessarily corresponding. And furthermore, that Android is actually open source is highly debatable but I won't go there.
Why do so many technophiles fall for the discourse that open means choice means freedom mean democracy discourse? It's all BALONEY! Google isn't really interested in protecting your freedom, democracy etc.. It's really interested in surviving and making money. Let's try not to fall AGAIN for that political cover.
In this case, I find Apple much more honest. They don't talk about political ideologies like freedom, democracy etc. All they say is they want to make devices that are friendly and easy to use. They don't couch their products in political ideological terms.
Your verbose attempt to cloud the truth is impressive, even if wildly false. It's readily apparent you've gone to great lengths to cover up your lack of technical erudition.
I do agree that Apples current advantages are:
1) Brand Name
2) Excellent Product Design
3) Huge Population Of Cult Like Followers
4) Steve Jobs, Worlds Best Sales Person
Yet change is brewing, nothing lasts forever.
Be prepared.
MovieCutter
Nov 28, 08:13 PM
**** em, that's all there is to say. And **** anybody who says otherwise.
4God
Jul 14, 11:00 PM
Power supplies produce a lot of heat. It makes great sense according to simply the most basic laws of thermodynamics.
Could you please explain this basic law of thermodynamics and I mean more extensively than "heat rises."
I always thought that the power supply was on top because of the heat generated by it. Since heat rises, it wouldn't pass over the rest of the computer on its way out. I still agree with you about the weight part though.
Bill the TaxMan
Well since the current G5's have a seperate chamber for the power supply, I guess that wouldn't matter. Also, isn't the air cooler at the bottom than at the already warm top? Go figure....
Could you please explain this basic law of thermodynamics and I mean more extensively than "heat rises."
I always thought that the power supply was on top because of the heat generated by it. Since heat rises, it wouldn't pass over the rest of the computer on its way out. I still agree with you about the weight part though.
Bill the TaxMan
Well since the current G5's have a seperate chamber for the power supply, I guess that wouldn't matter. Also, isn't the air cooler at the bottom than at the already warm top? Go figure....
benthewraith
Nov 28, 07:48 PM
If we're already paying a royalty on blank CD-Rs because they say we are using Limewire, then aren't those of who aren't using Limewire essentially paying to use a service which we are not using?
By my logic, if we are already compensating the music industry through our purchases, we should then be entitled to use the services I just found out from these posts that we are paying for!
They'd have us go back to CD-format if they could, and impose whatever restrictions necessary to control whatever we do.
By my logic, if we are already compensating the music industry through our purchases, we should then be entitled to use the services I just found out from these posts that we are paying for!
They'd have us go back to CD-format if they could, and impose whatever restrictions necessary to control whatever we do.
Peace
Aug 7, 11:14 PM
Hi, this is just a question to the developers. Did you already get 10.5? I have the ADC Select membership but can�t find 10.5 in the download section. Please send me an email where I can find it. Thank you!
It's not yet available to ADC Select/Premier members that didn't go to todays keynote.
I'd kinda like to know myself since I couldn't attend.
It's not yet available to ADC Select/Premier members that didn't go to todays keynote.
I'd kinda like to know myself since I couldn't attend.
epitaphic
Sep 13, 11:02 AM
Read more here...
http://www.sun.com/2004-0914/feature/index.html
Logically, the next question is if ZFS' 128 bits is enough. According to Bonwick, it has to be. "Populating 128-bit file systems would exceed the quantum limits of earth-based storage. You couldn't fill a 128-bit storage pool without boiling the oceans."
wow. boiling the oceans. there's a thought that never crossed my mind ;)
http://www.sun.com/2004-0914/feature/index.html
Logically, the next question is if ZFS' 128 bits is enough. According to Bonwick, it has to be. "Populating 128-bit file systems would exceed the quantum limits of earth-based storage. You couldn't fill a 128-bit storage pool without boiling the oceans."
wow. boiling the oceans. there's a thought that never crossed my mind ;)
toughboy
Aug 26, 04:11 PM
If the power consumption is the same... does that mean that the Merom and the current chips suck the same amount energy while going full throttle?
If the above is true, if you turned down the Merom to match the speed of the current chips, wouldn't the Merom be drawing 20% less power?
In other words if the Merom and the current chip were both going 60 mph down the freeway, would the Merom be drawing less power?
Am I missing something here (such as the basics of electricity, the basic way that chips work, etc.)?
512ke
Maybe its just efficiency... As days past and R&D continues to evolve, chips will be more efficient and they'll produce more power for less energy..
If the above is true, if you turned down the Merom to match the speed of the current chips, wouldn't the Merom be drawing 20% less power?
In other words if the Merom and the current chip were both going 60 mph down the freeway, would the Merom be drawing less power?
Am I missing something here (such as the basics of electricity, the basic way that chips work, etc.)?
512ke
Maybe its just efficiency... As days past and R&D continues to evolve, chips will be more efficient and they'll produce more power for less energy..
mlayer
Mar 22, 05:29 PM
The tablet market is going to be large, with estimates of 50 million units or more this year. Apple may get 35 million of those sales, which puts the iPad at 70%. Add to the high number of hand-downs and secondhand sales and that further reduces the number of available customers for everyone else.
Let's say that the tablet market explodes and total sold is 60 million, with Apple getting 36 million. That's 60%, and it leaves 24 million for the others. One of the key market drivers for Motorola, Samsung, and the various Android manufacturers is the pace of iteration. Every quarter there's a new phone on one or more carriers. These manufacturers can't afford to iterate as quickly with tablets (maybe twice a year), and they don't have the subsidy model or 2-for-1's to help them while they are selling. That puts HP and RIM on much better footing compared to the Android manufacturers, and HP and RIM are leveraging their enterprise reach to get a foothold. Both HP and RIM could sell 2-3 million (5%) each.
Samsung/Motorola/LG/Acer/HTC will have what should be a growing number of Honeycomb tablet apps, but they're all priced the same making it difficult to differentiate. Motorola tried to be a first mover with Honeycomb. Samsung is throwing various sizes against the wall to see what sticks. LG's best claim is the first to 3D. Acer has its previous experience with Windows. HTC hasn't really played in the tablet market before. In the end it looks like they'll end up competing with each other, not Apple, for that 10-20% of the market. Whoever loses will be heavily discounted on Black Friday, and the market will settle by the next CES.
For Apple this isn't the iPod or the iPhone due to external factors. It's too early and the market is still figuring itself out. As long as Apple is setting trends and everyone else is responding, the iPad is in the catbird seat.
Let's say that the tablet market explodes and total sold is 60 million, with Apple getting 36 million. That's 60%, and it leaves 24 million for the others. One of the key market drivers for Motorola, Samsung, and the various Android manufacturers is the pace of iteration. Every quarter there's a new phone on one or more carriers. These manufacturers can't afford to iterate as quickly with tablets (maybe twice a year), and they don't have the subsidy model or 2-for-1's to help them while they are selling. That puts HP and RIM on much better footing compared to the Android manufacturers, and HP and RIM are leveraging their enterprise reach to get a foothold. Both HP and RIM could sell 2-3 million (5%) each.
Samsung/Motorola/LG/Acer/HTC will have what should be a growing number of Honeycomb tablet apps, but they're all priced the same making it difficult to differentiate. Motorola tried to be a first mover with Honeycomb. Samsung is throwing various sizes against the wall to see what sticks. LG's best claim is the first to 3D. Acer has its previous experience with Windows. HTC hasn't really played in the tablet market before. In the end it looks like they'll end up competing with each other, not Apple, for that 10-20% of the market. Whoever loses will be heavily discounted on Black Friday, and the market will settle by the next CES.
For Apple this isn't the iPod or the iPhone due to external factors. It's too early and the market is still figuring itself out. As long as Apple is setting trends and everyone else is responding, the iPad is in the catbird seat.
Super Dave
Aug 6, 01:29 PM
Mac OS X Leopard
Introducing Vista 2.0
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=207241438&size=l
:D
B
Is that Vista 2.0 thing real? I hadn't seen it before.
David :cool:
Introducing Vista 2.0
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=207241438&size=l
:D
B
Is that Vista 2.0 thing real? I hadn't seen it before.
David :cool:
EagerDragon
Aug 25, 07:36 PM
Kind of a rude reply to someone who is just posting their experience with Apple.
Without criticism there would never be a reason to improve anything.
100% agree, there are manufactoring mistakes, the man should have a right to complain, lets not be rude. Sorry about that, people should not treat you like that.
Without criticism there would never be a reason to improve anything.
100% agree, there are manufactoring mistakes, the man should have a right to complain, lets not be rude. Sorry about that, people should not treat you like that.
rdowns
Apr 27, 01:26 PM
I now know that the certificate is a copy, and no, I don't trust President Obama.
Shouldn't you be complaining the he didn't do enough to acknowledge Easter? :rolleyes:
Shouldn't you be complaining the he didn't do enough to acknowledge Easter? :rolleyes:
AppliedVisual
Oct 15, 01:08 PM
How long did macPro delay compared to HPs similar workstation?
HP, Dell and IBM all had dual Core 2 Xeon workstation systems available 2~3 weeks ahead of Apple's Mac Pro release. Apple has yet to release their new Xserve. HP, Dell, IBM and others have had dual (and even some quad CPU configurations) of Core 2 Xeon 1U servers and blades available for months now...
HP, Dell and IBM all had dual Core 2 Xeon workstation systems available 2~3 weeks ahead of Apple's Mac Pro release. Apple has yet to release their new Xserve. HP, Dell, IBM and others have had dual (and even some quad CPU configurations) of Core 2 Xeon 1U servers and blades available for months now...
TheSideshow
Apr 25, 01:35 PM
They cant lose this surely?
Even Android stores your location in the exact same way iOS does.
Except secured
Even Android stores your location in the exact same way iOS does.
Except secured
bedifferent
Apr 10, 10:42 PM
I guess there's a lot of drama among the industry about Apple's refusal to release any kind of road map for FCP, not unlike their other products, and apparently a lot of people are starting to jump ship to Adobe's offerings. Everyone is pretty worried about this new overhaul because the guy who botched iMovie is the guy now in charge of FCP. I'm not into video editing, and I've never never used FCP or any product like it, but after hearing about all the drama and excitement surrounding this new overhaul I'm pretty stoked to see what happens.
My friend, who is a documentary film maker, was hired by Apple as a designer working with FCP engineers. In the past, we had differing views on FCP; I believed Apple was dropping it as well as other pro-sumer based products while she thought they wouldn't.
After recently speaking, and w/o breaking her NDA, she said she's disappointed. The project managers and engineers squabble a lot, and the designers (all almost film-makers and editors) aren't getting much input. According to her, Apple needs to fire the management and instate those focused on bringing the product to a new pro-sumer level. There appears to be a lot of mixed reviews, and that (as like Aperture) FCP is an attempt to bridge consumer and prosumer engines creating a big mess.
We'll see.
The guy who 'botched' iMovie is the same person that created Final Cut and continues to work on Final Cut. Randy Ubillos has been the head of Apple's video editing suites/applications for as long as I can remember.
�and according to those close to FCP development, therein lies the issue...
My friend, who is a documentary film maker, was hired by Apple as a designer working with FCP engineers. In the past, we had differing views on FCP; I believed Apple was dropping it as well as other pro-sumer based products while she thought they wouldn't.
After recently speaking, and w/o breaking her NDA, she said she's disappointed. The project managers and engineers squabble a lot, and the designers (all almost film-makers and editors) aren't getting much input. According to her, Apple needs to fire the management and instate those focused on bringing the product to a new pro-sumer level. There appears to be a lot of mixed reviews, and that (as like Aperture) FCP is an attempt to bridge consumer and prosumer engines creating a big mess.
We'll see.
The guy who 'botched' iMovie is the same person that created Final Cut and continues to work on Final Cut. Randy Ubillos has been the head of Apple's video editing suites/applications for as long as I can remember.
�and according to those close to FCP development, therein lies the issue...
gekko513
Jul 15, 12:27 PM
Also, 1GB of RAM, who are they kidding? More like Mac Amateur
Many prefer to buy their own RAM because it's usually cheaper. There would be more people crying if Apple bundled 2GB of expensive RAM. They could offer a RAM downgrade of course, but then why not just give the price of the downgraded version, which leaves us at square one again.
Many prefer to buy their own RAM because it's usually cheaper. There would be more people crying if Apple bundled 2GB of expensive RAM. They could offer a RAM downgrade of course, but then why not just give the price of the downgraded version, which leaves us at square one again.
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